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By Linda Dobson
Diane Ravitch’s latest in a string of highly-regarded books about education, The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education (Basic Books, 2010), quickly hit the New York Times best-seller list and has taken the nation by storm.
In part, it’s because Ms. Ravitch, once a staunch supporter of No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB), uses both her skills as an historian and the book’s pages to explain in great detail why she feels the highlights of NCLB – namely testing and school choice – haven’t helped and, in fact, are hurting American education.
Maybe we'd all be better off if we spent less time on rankings and more time on learning.
I highly recommend that every parent with school-aged children read this book, if only to cull Ms. Ravitch’s vast knowledge of educational history, as well as its players – some of whom may greatly surprise you.
On a personal level, it was delightful to have a brief opportunity to correspond with Ms. Ravitch. If we lived next door to each other, I could see us enjoying coffee together during which we’d likely have very spirited conversations about our different perspectives on the mess the United States has made of educating children and, more importantly, on how to fix it if, in fact, that would be a wise thing to do.
So, without further ado, here is “Authors Diane Ravitch and Linda Dobson Discuss Education.”
I realize some time has passed since our last correspondence. When your book arrived – in a VERY timely manner, I might add! – I decided to wait until I had finished reading it before sending questions to you. Given how busy you’ve been promoting the book, I hope this has worked out well for you.
I enjoyed reading the book very much. It includes so much information, it’s hard to know where to begin! In any event, I will be as brief as possible.
Dobson: You wrote that “many charter schools enforce discipline codes that would likely be challenged in court if they were adopted in regular public schools.” What type of discipline is this?
Ravitch: Charter schools have strict disciplinary codes. Public schools worry about IEPs and are reluctant to remove disruptive students because it might violate their IEP.
Dobson: My understanding is that approximately 3% of the school-aged population currently avail themselves of charter schools. This is roughly the same percentage of children homeschooling. What do you see as “the tipping point” percentages related to the “dilemma of educating all students” noted on pg. 145? More importantly, if this tipping point is reached, what do you think will happen to the public school system?
Ravitch: I worry about charter schools draining away the motivated students in the poorest communities, overloading the local public schools with the kids who are hardest to educate. It seems that 90% of the public’s attention is focused on the schools that educate 3% of the kids. What’s wrong with that equation?
Dobson: On several occasions you mentioned the problem of charter schools either denying entry to or kicking out the students they don’t want. Leaders of homeschool support groups have noticed a marked rise in inquiries about homeschooling by parents who have been told by public school administrators to homeschool them – we’ve kind of fallen into the term “push outs” for lack of a better one. How would you recommend both of these problems be solved? Ravitch: Public schools need to be more flexible (and freer of court mandates) to provide appropriate settings for kids who are disruptive, so they don’t prevent everyone from learning. Or having a chance to learn.
Dobson: On page 219 you wrote, “And common sense suggests that any system of measurement that produces a top quartile will also produce three other quartiles.” As I read the whole book, this exact thought was at the forefront of my mind: Whether high stakes test or a pop quiz, the nature of school’s grading system has always produced this for children who have a very good idea of whether they’re “top” or “stupid.” Do you think if it’s problematic in one instance (and I agree it is), it’s problematic in all instances, a problem that pervades the entirety of children’s school experience that turns out well for a small percentage and not so well for the majority? What might be done about it?
Ravitch: You can’t eliminate competition, but you also can’t make absurd claims that “all teachers should be top quartile.” That is meaningless since it is a logical impossibility. Maybe we’d all be better off if we spent less time on rankings and more time on learning.
Dobson: On page 167 you wrote, “And when we use the results of tests, with all their limitations, as a routine means to fire educators, hand out bonuses, and close schools, then we distort the purpose of schooling altogether.” Given the economic crisis and the condition of state budgets, governors and state boards of education are tripping over themselves to claim a piece of Race to the Top money which requires they agree to do more of what distorts the purpose of schooling altogether. What advice do you have for parents whose children will likely spend the majority – if not the entirety – of their school years in this distorted-purpose environment?
Ravitch: Run for cover. Race to the Top is awful. It distorts education and puts it into the wrong framework altogether. We are in the process of destroying education.
Dobson: What are your thoughts on why the public school system hasn’t kept up with the general society’s implementation of available information technology for learning?
Ravitch: The best technology is the interaction between teachers and students, not between computers and students. The schools that “keep up” are not the best.
As anyone who knows me will realize from reading this, I found a few of the answers unsatisfactory. I sent a few follow-up questions a couple of times. Enough time has elapsed that I accepted I wouldn’t be hearing back. Yeah, I’m disappointed, and now shared with you what there is.
Link to this page
I live in a fairly affluent town in So.California. The schools are decent, but not great, and slowly going downhill. My daughter was already showing signs of hyperactivity and distraction in 1st grade which the teacher was unable to handle so she suggested medication. My daughter is extremely intelligent (reading comprehension in Kindergarten was 5th grade level) and was bored. I decided to enroll her in a public charter school because I could tailor her education to fit her needs. I do not have the luxury of time to waste while the public brick and mortar schools try to fix their problems. According to Ms. Ravitch I'm supposed to leaver her in there because to take her out is a drain of brain power? I'm sorry, but that's too bad.
Unsatisfactory, indeed. I wonder if she's ever even considered what could happen in a truly competitive, innovative free market of educational alternatives? One that rids us of compulsion.
We need more freedom for the kids.
We need more freedom for the parents.
We need more freedom for the teachers.
Lynn and Debbie, thank you for your comments.
Lynn, this topic has come up over and over…sacrificing children for the perpetuation of the system; that is unthinkable for those parents willing and able to pursue other avenues to *save their own children.*
In fact, here are my follow-up comments:
You wrote, regarding discipline, "Public schools worry about IEPs and are reluctant to remove disruptive students because it might violate their IEP." IEP's are Individualized Education Plans, yes? And they're usually in place for children with special learning needs? Does your answer indicate that IEP students "must be included in a 'normal' classroom" or that they're not to be placed in detention or study hall, or something else?
I asked, "What advice do you have for parents whose children will likely spend the majority – if not the entirety – of their school years in this distorted-purpose environment?" Your answer was: "Run for cover." I'd really like for you to elaborate on this, Diane, because it's so vitally important to families who are hurting everywhere and don't see much light at the end of the tunnel. HOW do these parents run for cover during this time that "We are in the process of destroying education"? What practical steps would you recommend to them to actually accomplish running for cover?
In my mind, THESE questions need answering, because I couldn't ask ANY parent to sacrifice his or her child(ren).